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Microsoft Access Forum
By Richard Rost   Richard Rost on Facebook Richard Rost on Twitter Richard Rost on Google Plus Richard Rost on LinkedIn Email Richard Rost

This forum is for the discussion of Microsoft Access.

Access is my personal specialty. Have questions? Comments? Want to discuss how to do something? Post it here. Also, I get a LOT of questions sent to me in Email from people around the world. I'll post the interesting ones in here. Feel free to comment on them.

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Read Relationships by John M @ 10/15/2017
In my Expert Level 4's FamilyMemberF with Michele, Richard III and Lauryn on it, when I drag this into CustomerExtendedF it will not show any detail. Only one new record {empty} is available. I have inserted the cousin which was successful. Any ideas where I've made a mistake?

Reply from Alex Hedley:

Did you setup the Link Master/Child fields?
It may have tried to automatically do this and picked the incorrect Ids.
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Read To many relationships to one ID by David B @ 9/2/2017
that is correct
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Read To many relationships to one ID by David B @ 9/1/2017
No.  There is too much data for one single test table.  There needs to be individual tables for each test.

Can access handle this or should I look at pursuing SQL Server or Oracle?

Reply from Alex Hedley:

How are you linking the Patient to the Tests?
Does each Test Table have a Foreign Key of PatientId.
When you want to show the Tests you have a subform for every single Test?
Are you creating the Relationships with the Relationships window or just letting Access figure it out based on the same Id Field names.
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Read To many relationships to one ID by David B @ 8/27/2017
There is a table for each test.  One grand tale would be too large

Reply from Alex Hedley:

As in it would have too many fields as you need different fields for each test?
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Read To many relationships to one ID by David B @ 8/13/2017
I am working on a database to help with patient diagnostics.  So far I have structured it as a patient table and then I am linking the patient to the tests we perform (Many to many).

The challenge is there are hundreds of tests and Access says I have maxed out the number of relationships I can create to the patient ID.  What's the best strategy for this?


Reply from Alex Hedley:

Do you have a single Test table which has a type then a result or are there tables for each test?
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Read Failed Sub Form Relationships by Craig @ 8/6/2017
Hi, I have 3 tables each joined by 1-M relationship.  When I add the 3rd tbl to a master form as a sub form it does not see the relationship between it and the 2nd tble? I have verified the join between the 2nd & 3rd tables is valid and works when just these 2 tables are added as form - subF? Any advice much appreciated, thanks.

Reply from Alex Hedley:

Master / Child Fields correct?
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Read Relationships by Ravi Chandiran @ 9/13/2016

I am really confused when I learn more and more.

I am seeing Richard's sample databases. He is not relating tables using DATABASE TOOLS AND RELATIONSHIPS.Is it not necessary to relate tables using Database Tools and Relatioships when we design a database. Please clear my doubt. It is too much itching my head.

Thanks in advance.

Regards to all.

Ravi Chandiran

Reply from Alex Hedley:

Access is clever if you name the linking Fields with the same name so ClientID as PK in ClientT then ClientID as FK in AddressT when you pull both tables into a Query it will try and auto join those Fields as the names match.
The Relationships window just forces this incase you haven't named them the same, or don't want to forget which Fields join.
There is a Seminar which goes into it in further detail or search for which courses they are covered.
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Read Relationships Impractical Am I missing something by Alex C @ 6/24/2015
Do I really need to reference (by hand) every parent ID to the appropriate field in the child table? This seems really impractical for a database of 1500 customers, each of which will have multiple sold orders, unsold orders, contract change records, and correspondences. Is there any way to automate this? Could this be one of the rare cases when an internal customer number could be used instead of the database autonumber (I'll remember the customer number to type in, I'll never remember the autonumber to type into the child table)? I have to be missing something, right?

Reply from Alex Hedley:

You set the value of the ID to be a default value based on another form Field. Say you open a form from the customer form and you want them to link have the customerid on this new form and set the default value to Form!CustomerF!CustomerID
These ids are meant to be dealt with in the background they don't even need to be visible
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Read Relationships with some records by Neetiay @ 5/18/2015

I have two records in the same table for separate individuals.

I want to create another table to hold  different data for only one of the individuals from the first table.

Is it possible to use the table relationships I learnt in Expert 1 to take just the name of the individual from the first table to avoid duplication of the name?


Reply from Alex Hedley:

You can do it that way, you could have a NameT that has NameID and Name
1 | Fred
2 | Jane

Then a UserT
UserID | NameID | OtherInfo
1 | 1 | Likes Cheese

Then you can create a Query that joins UserT NameID with NameT NameID to show the name of User 1.
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Read Product Ingredient Relationships by Richard R @ 8/26/2014
I had a good question from Yvonne today, and I thought I'd share it with everyone:


I am in the process of correcting an existing database.
I have a
ProductT: ?product number, product description, batch size
RawMaterialT: raw material number, raw material description
IngredientT: ingredient description, raw material number, percent
MasterProductT: product number, raw material number, amount

The way the MasterProductT it is currently set is (productA is using these resources in these amounts):

ProductA. ???11111. ???25.000
ProductA. ???22222. ???50.000
ProductA. ???33333. ???15.000

My question: ?once I go in and add the appropriate foreign keys, how do I fix the above scenario? ?Do I have to go in manually and add the foreign key for all the products? ?I'm sure there must be a better way, as I have hundreds of products.


Well, I don't fully understand the relationships between your tables by just their names, but if we break it down to just TWO items:


Assuming each Product is made up of more than one Ingredient, then YES, you would have to specify which Product each Ingredient belongs to. You can do it manually in the tables or with combo boxes in forms.

ProductT (ProductID, Name)
1, Computer
2, Car
3, Chocolate Cake

IngredientT (IngredientID, ProductID, Name)
1, 1, Hard Drive
2, 1, Memory
3, 1, Keyboard
4, 2, Steering Wheel
5, 2, Gas Pedal
6, 3, Chocolate
7, 3, Eggs
8, 3, Flour

This is a classic ONE-TO-MANY relationship where each product can have many ingredients. Unfortunately, YES, you have to tell Access this manually - it won't just magically know which ingredients belong to which products.

Now if you have a situation where each ingredient could be used in MULTIPLE products, then you need a MANY-TO-MANY relationship. This involves a Junction Table and I cover this in Access Expert Level 7.

For example:

1, Chocolate Cake
2, Vanilla Cake

You might have Eggs and Flour that can belong to BOTH products, but Chocolate only belongs to 1. This requires a many-to-many relationship, so if that's the case WAIT until you get to Access Expert 7 before building your tables.
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Read Relationships by Robert M. L @ 8/17/2014
Hi Richard:
I have a query that is based on two tables, and there are joined by their  VoterID .  I have a form named  VoterInformation  that was designed based on this query and it functions well.  My problems is that when I add an additional table, it fails and I get the following message,
The specified field  [VoterID]  could refer to more than one table listed in the FROM clause of your SQL statement.
Could you direct me to which course covers this subject, if there is none, could you tell me how I can correct this problem.
Thanks in advance
Bob Lilly

Reply from Richard Rost:

Expert 1 & 2 cover relationships. Sounds like you've already got VoterID in your query, so you can't add another one without specifying different source table/query names. You could ALIAS the field so that it has two different names.

VoterID1: [VoterT].[VoterID]
VoterID2: [VoterInfoT].[VoterID]
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Read How many one to many relationships by Trent @ 3/11/2014
So Richard you are saying that it is possible to take the primary key of a main table over to another table based on their selection in a field that has two selections from a look-up.
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Read Relationships by Trent @ 3/11/2014
Thank you for your reply Richard.  I am going to purchase and review your recommendations below.  I have attached a condensed version of my three tables and the one of the relationships I am trying to establish.  I oversee the volunteers in Crown Point, IN at our clinic.  There are two types of volunteers in our Volunteer Transportation Network Program: Office volunteers who work in an office taking phone calls from Veterans and scheduling rides via our DAV (Disabled American Veterans) vans (donated to the Dept. of Veterans Affairs).  These volunteers have computer access, which requires computer training, orientations, second level of background check and a smartcard, which serves as an ID and is inserted into the keyboard for computer access.  The other other type of volunteer is a person who will drive a van from one of three locations in NW Indiana to the clinic.  They have a separate and relatively different processing track than an office volunteer.

I would like to tie the unique ID on the top table to one of the two tables below it with that number flowing to either the office volunteer table or driver volunteer table, but also based on one of the fields (type of volunteer: office or driver) choose in the top table.  If I select in this field "office" this record (Potential Volunteer table) would then tie into the record in the table office volunteer for that person.  The same would happen for a driver volunteer.

I hope this explains it better.  I do not know if it is possible or I may have to do a subtable to link the three tables together to accomplish this.  This relationship almost reminds me of the if then statements.
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Read How many one to many relationships by Jeremy @ 3/22/2013
Thank you very much...
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Read How many one to many relationships by Jeremy @ 3/21/2013
How many one to many relationships can a database have?  Our company has around 70 customers.  Each customer will have a 1 to many relationship.  Do I build a database for each customer or have 70 one to many relationships?

Reply from Richard Rost:

Relationships are set up between tables. It doesn't matter how many RECORDS each table has. You can have 1 customer or 100,000. You're only limited by the size of the database (2GB per ACCDB file).

I don't believe there is a limit to how many relationships you can have between the different tables in your database, but you shouldn't realistically ever reach it.
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Read Viewing Database Relationships by Robert B @ 11/29/2012
Hello Richard,

The first time I opened the MS database Northwind.accdb, I clicked on 'DATABASE TOOLS, then RELATIONSHIPS to view all the relationships associated with that database. (At that time in my knowledge it was just a bewildering collection of tables with interconnecting lines.)

As of this week, I have worked through your Access Beginner 1-7 for 2010, plus Beginner 104 for Access 2003 as well as Intermediate 201,202 & 203 for Access 2003. Through your lessons I have created all the tables, forms queries and the associated relationships for the PCresale database to that point.

However, I am not able to view that same 'big picture' relationship screen with the PCresale database as I am with the Northwind database.

Can you offer any tips as to why that is?


Reply from Richard Rost:

Robert, that screen shows GLOBAL table relationships which you don't HAVE to use. In fact, I almost never use them unless I want to set up something called referential integrity and cascade deletes. I generally set up the relationships between the tables in my database "ad hoc" in the query designer, as I need them.

I cover these topics in the next couple of lessons you haven't gotten to yet: Access 220-223. I'll be covering them in detail in the Access Expert series too. I'll probably, in fact, get to them sooner in 2010 than I did in 2003.

This tip video explains more about cascade deletes, to give you an idea of how they're useful
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Read Multiple relationships querry by Alex Hedley @ 10/24/2012
Hi Neven,

What is your Table Structure?
What Join Type are you using?

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Read Multiple relationships querry by Neven Miskulin @ 10/23/2012
Hi all,

I just finished the Relationship seminar and made a multiple relationship database. Each company has few e-mails and phones and each employee has many different e-mails. However, I want to design a querry that shows: Employee name, company name and the correspodent emails and phones. How do I do that? Access brings back empty table with no results. Must I define relationships or what. Otherwise, the entry forms work perfect.
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Read Global Relationships by Mariea @ 2/17/2012
Richard, can you please tell me why you do not like global relationships?

Reply from Richard Rost:

It depends on the database, and the situation. Most of the time, I don't set up global relationships. The only exception is if I want to enforce referential integrity. You can read more about why here.

In a nutshell, if you name your fields properly and consistently, then Access will automatically make the correct relationships in your queries most of the time. Cascade UPDATES are unnecessary and should never happen if you use AutoNumbers for your primary key fields (which you should).

Cascade DELETES are the only major benefits that I can see by using global relationships - and I'm VERY careful to use these (delete a customer and all of his orders disappear from your system). I prefer to handle this myself with a delete query and SEVERAL "are you sure?" prompts.

So, it really depends on your needs, your database, and your situation. You can build a great database without ever setting up global relationships. Sure, they can sometimes make a nice "road map" for your database, but I find them largely unnecessary.

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Read Tables and Relationships by Chiplion @ 9/26/2011
Dear Richard Rost
Thank you for your reply & suggestion. I try to put all fields into one table, how ever, when I entered 200 fields,it said "Propery value is too large". and I can not save the table. How to enlarge the Propery value for the fields. Please assist
Thank you

Reply from Richard Rost:

That error is generally caused by having too many fields in a table. In this case you might need to break them up into two tables and link them together.
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Read Tables and Relationships by Chiplion @ 9/24/2011
Hi, Richard Rost
I have gone through Access 101 & 202 more than 2 times. My 12 pages data are to keep track a patient's transplant records. page 1 table contains patient's info and some of transplant data such date of transplant & other follow up treatments.
Table 2 to table 12 are mainly on treatments records. Each page contains such as type, methods, durg use... of treament to the patient. What I need is; when I completed fill out data in  page 1, and I should be able to go to page 2 and continue to  enter data with the same patient. And so on, goto page 3 up to page 12. It is not possible to put 12 pages into one form. Pkease assist.
Thank you

Reply from Richard Rost:

It sounds to me like you're confusing TABLES and FORMS. The tables are where you actually store the data. The forms are just a visual tool for entering that data. Your tables and forms do NOT have to actually match each other in structure. You might have ONE table that stores the data for a dozen different forms, and vice versa.

From what you've described, you should have ONE table storing patient data (that's it). A second table storing transplant info (organ, time/date, notes, etc.). Perhaps a third table with relevant information (drugs, rejections, etc.)

You probably DON'T need 12 tables. Even though you might want 12 different FORMS (or pages) to fill in all of that data, the information is going to be stored in far fewer tables... I SUSPECT. I'd need to see your complete data layout to tell you for sure.
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Read Tables and Relationships by Chiplion @ 9/23/2011
I have 12 pages of forms to be created by Access. I created 12 tables & 12 forms. But I enouter on the forms' relationship. Another one can help?

Reply from Richard Rost:

We'd need to know a lot more about your tables. What are they? What kind of data are you working with? I spend a lot of time covering relationships in the 200-series.
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Read Relationships and Subforms by Paula @ 3/22/2011
Thanks for the very quick response. I should have mentioned that each employee could have several jobs over the course of their stay in the company and also each job can have more than one person assigned to it at any one time. The EmployeeID field is actually a personnel number. Will what you suggested still work ?


Reply from Richard Rost:

That's fine. You might also want to create a JobHistory table then - so you can see what jobs the employee has had in the past, and what employees have done a particular job. This is nothing more than a JUNCTION TABLE:


If there is no END DATE you can assume that the employee currently has that job.
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Read Relationships and Subforms by Paula @ 3/22/2011
Hi Richard,
  I'm creating a staff training database and have 3 main tables
tbl_Employees (Personal Info)
tbl_Training(Job training details)
tbl_Jobs(List of different jobs)
  My tbl_Training will be populated via a form which will be used to fill in a persons job skills. I need to add two subforms to the main form which list Equipment Items and Protective Clothing issued (these will be stored in 2 separate tables. I can't seem to get the relationships right for this set-up. Could you give me any advice ?

Thanks a lot,

Reply from Richard Rost:

Sure. I cover relationships in Access 201. You will need to have an EmployeeID as a FOREIGN KEY in your Equipment and Clothing tables. That's what relates each record back to your Employee. Now, set up 2 subforms (Access 202) on your Employee form (using the Wizard here is OK) and relate them using that EmployeeID field.
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Read Relationships for Vehicles by Andy @ 4/26/2010
I am currently constructing a database for an automotive dismantling yard. My skills in access is intermediate.

All that is required is a database where they will be able to search for a vehicle they are enquiring about, and it will show detailed information about the vehicle and a couple of photos.

The problem I am having is:
a. Im not sure how what data should i have as relationships?

To assist in answering the question, the following are the feilds that I have:
5. BUILT DATE (month/year)
7. VIN
11. CAPACITY (ie. 2.8L)
17. KM'S

Answer from Richard Rost:

Well, from what I can see here, you don't need any relationships. You have ONE table, which is fine if all you're searching for is data on a car.

Now, you could make some separate tables to store different makes and models, so you could pick from drop-down lists… but you don't need to. You could just make those free-formated text boxes.
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Read Subforms and one-to-one relationships by Dave @ 3/27/2010
I guess I'm intermediate - advanced.

Mostly for layout reasons  I have a form structure that is:
Main form, containing a tabbed layout with 3 subforms, with each tab / subform containing subforms.  The overall form is setup as a one-to-one relationship.  The Main form (parent) primary key is the master-child link to the subform (child) and then the sub-subforms (grandchild) link to the subform primary key with current records limits all around.  

Is that the right structure for the master-child linkage.  Should the grandchild reference the parent primary key directly?  They are really just a cascade.

My issue is that when I create a new record at the parent form level, it is not creating grandchild records.  The relationships are there, as are the master-child links.

Answer from Richard Rost:

I would have to see your database or at least know more about your table structures in order to tell you the best way to set it up.

However, when you have even a simple form/subform relationship, creating a PARENT record does not automatically create a CHILD record.

Take the instance of customers and orders. If you create a new customer record in the parent form, that doesn't not create an order record in the subform.

So your relationships and forms might be set up 100% correct. You just need to create those "grandchild" records yourself. Any kind of "do this automatically" is going to have to be programmed by YOU.
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Read relationships by Chuck @ 12/13/2009
After 30 years of marrage Ithought I understood relationships, them I met Access.
I have 3 tables and 3 forms table one is a patients demographics, clientid PK, name, address and such, tbl 2 has clientid (tied to clientid of tbl 1) and medication info, tbl 3 has clientid (also tied to tbl1 clientid ) I also tried tying it to tbl 2 clientid to see if it would help anyway tbl 3 has various health info. Each related form stores the data nicely into each tbl but for the life of me I cannot pull up with a query or report, complete data IE
Bob Smith, address, meds 1,2,3 with a HX of bypass surgery 6 yrs ago. My data is there I just cannot link it. I tried to do it in 1 tbl and I kept getting errors because it was too large.
How can I link these tables to come up with one patient.

Thanks for your help

Answer from Richard: The way you should have this set up is a ClientT table, a MedicationT table, and a HealthInfoT table.

Each of your three tables will have a ClientID. In the ClientT table, this is your PRIMARY KEY. In the other two tables, it's your FOREIGN key. I'm assuming each client could have multiple medications and multiple health info items.

To bring it all up together, just create a query and link the tables together using the query designer. If your fields are all named ClientID, then Access should form those relationships for you.

It sounds to me like you need to learn a little more about the basic concepts of building a Relational Database, and making relationships between two tables.

Watch this free tutorial on my web site for help with this topic:

I also spend a whole hour in my Access 201 class going over table relationships:
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Read Relationships by Carolyn Quinn @ 7/22/2009
By Georgie - I think I've got it!!!!!  I get it!!!! okay so I'm slow, but i got it now.  Thanks so much.  
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Read Relationships by Richard Rost @ 7/22/2009
Thanks, Carolyn.
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Read Relationships by Carolyn Quinn @ 7/22/2009
You are so wonderful!  I did see how you related the two tables and that is so easy.  I did it!  However, more than two tables begin to scare me.  I will print your response out and follow every step.  I am sure i will get it.  I could simply be fear you know.  I just want this to work out so my team can use it with ease and i may be scaring myself to death.  Thanks for th wonderful and long explanation.  That answer shows that you care and really want me to learn.  I appreciate your understanding my concerns and the time it took for you to write your response.  If anyone out there is unsure, Richard will get you there - have patience.  
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Read Relationships by Richard Rost @ 7/22/2009
Carolyn, have you built the database from class? In that sample I only relate two tables together (customers and contacts) but adding more tables isn't hard. Now, I don't know what YOUR data means - just seeing the names of your tables doesn't tell me much. But let's take another example: countries, states, cities, and people.

I have four tables: CountryT, StateT, CityT, and PersonT. My list of countries is just this:

CountryID (autonumber)
CountryName (USA, Canada, etc.)

My list of states now looks like this:

StateID (autonumber)
StateName (California, New York, etc.)
CountryID (foreign key)

So if my countries are:

1, USA
2, Canada
3, France

Then my states would look like this:

1, New York, 1
2, California, 1
3, Texas, 1
4, Ontario, 2
5, Quebec, 2
6, New Jersey, 1
7, Paris, 3

See how this part works? That's easy enough. Now to add CITIES you just keep the same idea going.

CityID (autonumber)
CityName (Buffalo, etc.)
StateID (foreign key)

So now my city table would be:

1, Buffalo, 1
2, Albany, 1
3, New York, 1
4, Los Angeles, 2
5, Toronto, 4
6, Newark, 6

You see, you can relate the cities to states, and then the states to countries. You don't need to relate cities directly back to countries, although you COULD if you wanted to by creating a QUERY and linking the two tables together based on CountryID (a common field).

Now when you have a person, all you have to do is store a CityID in the PersonT table and by knowing his city, you know what state and country he lives in - by relationships.

Without knowing MORE about how YOUR specific tables and fields work, however, it would be impossible for me to tell you how to set up your relationships.
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Read Relationships by  Carolyn Quinn @ 7/22/2009
Okay - i am starting my database all over again.  After viewing all of the Access 101 components - i know this is the right thing to do.  However, the relationship part is still annoying me.  When i create all of my tables.  The table that brings them all together confuses me.  I've got to get that understanding under my skin or my new project will fail.  So - i have all these tables - Account, Class, Region, Zone, Division, RVP, Culinary Leader, Class, CEC(Chef). State, SAP(budget number).  What i am sure about is the state and the SAP tables should be look ups.  I know all of them do not need to relate to each other, but most of them do.  I get stuck right here.  HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Read Table Relationships by Richard Rost @ 5/22/2009
Robert, I don't understand exactly what you're asking. Can you please be a little more specific? Have you taken my Access 201 class? I cover linking, keys, and all of this in that tutorial.
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Read Table Relationships by Robert @ 5/20/2009
I have a question regarding linking tables for example one to many.  Should the foreign key only reference the ID from the source table, and then utilize forms or query to access the actual field "values".  Or is it okay to have the foreign key lookup the field values in the table?
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