Jennifer and I already discussed this a little bit over email, but since she posted it here in the forum, I wanted to share some of what I told her for everyone else's benefit too. This is actually a question I get in different forms all the time: "Can I build this myself in Access, or am I better off paying for a commercial system?" The short answer is yes, absolutely, you can build something like this in Access.

When you look at the entire finished product, it sounds like a monster project. Customers, orders, wash and dry stages, tracking which machines are being used, add-ons like Tide and Downy, pickup dates, bag tags, receipts, sales history, employees, time cards, checklists, and everything else. But one of the things I told Jennifer in email is that she doesn't need to build everything all at once. That's probably the most important thing to remember with a project like this.

Don't sit down and say, "I need to build a complete replacement for a $2,000 commercial POS system." That's overwhelming. Instead, break it into smaller pieces. Start with customers and orders and get that working. Then maybe add the individual services and products on an order. After that, add order status so you can see that Mrs. Smith's order was received, is being washed, is in the dryer, is being folded, and is ready for pickup. Then start tracking which machines were used. Then add bag tags and receipts. You don't need employee time clocks, management reports, inventory, remote access, pickup and delivery scheduling, and every other feature on Day 1.

Build Version 1, use it, see what works and what doesn't, and then improve it. That's basically how I build software myself. I build something that solves the immediate problem, start using it, find the parts that suck, fix them, and add more features. LOL. Software is rarely "finished." It evolves.

As far as whether it's better to build your own or buy something that's already made, there are advantages to both. If you can find an existing POS system that does exactly what you need, and the price makes sense for your business, there's certainly nothing wrong with buying it. You'll probably be up and running much faster, and you can spend your time running your business instead of developing software.

The downside is exactly what Jennifer mentioned: you're dependent on somebody else's company and somebody else's software. You're also doing things THEIR way. If their workflow doesn't quite match yours, you either live with it or change the way you run your business. If you need a feature they don't have, you're dependent on them to add it. If they raise their prices, change their product, discontinue something you use, or decide that a feature you need belongs in a more expensive tier, that's out of your hands.

When you build your own software, you get to turn that relationship around. Instead of changing your business to fit the software, you change the software to fit your business. Want a screen showing every load that's currently in a dryer? Build it. Want an alert if something has been sitting in the washing stage too long? Build it. Want to know exactly how much Tide you sold this month versus Downy? Build it. Want your employees to have a completely different screen from the one you use? Build it. That's the part I personally love.

I'm a nerd. I like being able to get under the hood and change things myself. Even when there's commercial software available, I often prefer building my own stuff because I want complete control over it. But there's a cost to that too, and the cost is your time. You have to learn how to build it, maintain it, troubleshoot it, and improve it. Not everybody wants to do that. Some business owners would much rather pay somebody else and concentrate on running the business, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Jennifer, though, is already up through Developer 7. She's taken the Expert and Advanced classes and started working her way through the Developer series, so she's already got a pretty good foundation. She's rusty because she took a break for a couple of years, but that's fixable. Review what you need to review and keep moving forward.

And your timing is actually pretty good. Revisiting the POS system is VERY high on my list for the Developer series. I've got a couple of other things I want to cover first, and then my plan is to go back to the POS system that we started earlier in the Developer classes (which you're actually about to get to - Developer 14) and continue developing it into a much more complete application.

I'm probably going to continue with the simple retail/restaurant-style example because it's something everybody can understand. You order a burger, fries, a drink, maybe add cheese or bacon, pay for it, and the order moves through the system. But I want to design the underlying system to be as generic as reasonably possible so the concepts can be adapted to different businesses.

A laundromat is actually a perfect example. Instead of a burger moving through an order process, you've got a customer's laundry moving through intake, washing, drying, folding, and pickup. You've got services and add-ons, equipment, employees, payments, receipts, and all the other pieces. The business is different, but many of the database concepts underneath it are exactly the same.

So don't look at that commercial system and think, "I have to build all of that before I can use anything." Build the smallest system that would be useful to your business TODAY, start using it, and then make it a little better as you go. That's one of the biggest benefits of learning Access in the first place. You're not just learning how to build one database. You're learning how to build the tools that YOUR business needs.

Do you have anything made already, or are you starting from scratch?  I took a peek at the Cents website and their tool is pretty comprehensive.  If you start from scratch, you are not going to create that kind of tool in a couple of weeks even if you are great at Access.  And if you succeed in finishing it, there will still be future, ongoing, regular costs for maintaining and improving the database, like in all software.  So it's not like you will avoid extra cost if you make the database yourself.

In my old job, our company used a mixture of software made in-house (by myself) and third-party companies.  We paid for outside software when the job was too difficult and/or time-consuming for me to do, and I made the in-house stuff that I knew I was able to make in a timely and efficient manner.  I would suggest you think along those lines as well.  In short, this is more like a business decision you have to make rather than one about Access skills.

$2k for a comprehensive package? We used to charge between $20 and $50k on old super-minis for a complete package. There's probably little chance you will develop a complete system for less than $2k of your time. I personally don't start a project unless I have an expected return of $200k in the next three years from additional sales. That's my two cents.

Yeah, it kind of depends on the level of the business. If it's a startup, then $2,000 for software can be a significant investment.

Also, is she already running the business now?  If the business is not set up yet and you have a lot of time (say, 6 months) to draw up game plans, then you could definitely consider creating an in-house database system and doing some test designs on that.

The critical takeaway, is she is "so impatient". Look at all her app requirements! I can't tell you how many businesses I consulted with, hundreds, that wanted an immediate solution, but refused to budge from doing it "their way". As if the developer, with years of experience from previous clients hadn't figured out a workable flow that avoided stupidity.

Thomas  If her need is immediate, then the Cents software is a choice worth taking.  She can use Cents for N months while testing in-house database with Access.  That was what I did in my old job.  My company needed an EDI solution (electronic data interchange, a way to electronically transmit business documents like orders and invoices).  It was a big undertaking, as Richard would know (I believe Richard once worked with EDI).  So our company paid for a ready-made solution.  We used it for a few years while I researched for an alternative.  Eventually I developed an in-house solution.

Yeah, EDI is no bueno. I did a lot of work with it back in the day, and it can definitely be a pain in the balls. Kevin's point is a good one, though: sometimes the practical answer is to use an existing solution while you research, learn, and build the parts that make sense to bring in-house.

There are a lot of good points being made here, which is exactly why I asked Jennifer to bring this to the forums. The real questions are: How much time does she have? Is the business already running? What kind of budget is available? Does she need something operational immediately? And does she have the desire and disposition to build and maintain it herself? Based on her previous comments, I think she probably does.

Ultimately, this isn't just an Access question. It's a business decision based on time, cost, urgency, and how custom the requirements really are.

This is the kind of thing I used to consult with companies about all the time: should they build custom software, or buy something off the shelf? If a commercial product costs $3,000 or $5,000 and does what they need, and a custom database would cost them $15,000, then I'd tell them to buy the commercial product. That's just common sense.

On the other hand, I've moved plenty of companies away from QuickBooks and similar products because they had custom requirements that the off-the-shelf software simply couldn't handle. In those cases, a custom solution made sense because the business needed to work its own way, not force itself into somebody else's workflow.

I've also met with companies that were using QuickBooks and wondered whether they needed a custom database. After spending a couple of hours learning their business - on the clock, of course, LOL - my recommendation was sometimes, "Nope. Stay with QuickBooks. It does what you need." That's what they're paying for: experience and an honest assessment, not someone trying to sell them development hours.

I was always busy enough that I never had to talk someone into a custom solution just to get the billable work. If they didn't need a custom database, I told them to go with the off-the-shelf option.

Jennifer, you may eventually end up with a hybrid approach. Use Cents or another commercial system if you need to get running right away, while building the pieces you want to control yourself over time. Or start with a small Access system if you have enough time before launch. Either way, don't feel like you have to make one permanent, all-or-nothing decision today.

I agree with Richard. Build it yourself. I built a POS for an alcohol store in Oregon. The "products offered" may be different but the idea behind it is very similar.  It really did not take much time

Kevin My husband and I currently operate 2 physical brick and mortar laundromats. We want to start fluff and fold (wash dry fold) service in the next month or so because there is a demand for it in our area. Right now, we are just a self-service coin laundromat.

Kevin Oh, it would have to start from scratch unless I find a template somewhere. Yes, Cents is very comprehensive. I know it won't get done in a couple of weeks. We are just trying to save money, yet I know time is irreplaceable. We are stuck between should we or shouldn't we. One laundromat owner praises Cents and another hates it. So, it's hard to decide.

Richard We are not exactly a start-up. We've owned one laundromat for nearly 9 years and are 85% in the local pack in Google and considered the cleanest laundromat in the city. We purchased our second laundromat last year in October and that one isn't doing as good as it can. We had a rough first couple years with our first laundromat too. So, we're not new to this. And this second laundromat, which is 12 min drive from our first one, is dominating at the #1 spot for that city and does appear in the local 3 pack on Google in certain areas. The fluff and fold should really launch us into total laundromat domination.

Thomas I don't mean I want the whole enchilada "now" and we don't HAVE to have everything I listed. I just stated all those things because that's what the 2k package offers. It's the continuous $89 or $249 or $599 per month cost as long as we're using their proprietary software and hardware that has us turning our heads. I stated I'm impatient because I wish I could sit down and build the whole thing in a day or two, but that is not realistic. I'd be happy with just customers, orders, notes for the orders, receipts, tags to track bags. We are NOT starting with pick-up and delivery. It would be customers coming and dropping off laundry.

Kevin That's an idea too. I didn't think about kind of a hybrid - use the software in the meantime until our own system is developed.

Richard Wow, there are a lot of great points you make here Richard [and everyone else for that matter]. I was just trying to save us some money especially when we don't have a lot of it for the newer business because the rent is the biggest sucker of what little money we bring in. It's about $8500 a month.
I appreciate the points you made about a hybrid approach and that an off the shelf product may suit our needs. That's exactly how I feel about Quickbooks. It does what I need, but I loved how you showed a custom budget database during the classes here and there [if my old mind serves me correctly]

If we do a hybrid system or not, is it best to utilize office 365 for latest Access even though I really hate cloud stuff for privacy. I still have and use one small database I created on my desktop using Access 2010 or 2012...it's the professional disc that I still use only for Access. LibreOffice does have similar software but I can't exactly follow Rick's tutorials with it.

You can keep using your existing copy of Access if it works for you. There's no reason you have to upgrade just because Microsoft released something newer.

That said, I do recommend Microsoft 365 if you're going to build and rely on a business POS system. You get the current version of Access, ongoing security updates, bug fixes, and compatibility improvements. For something that will be running your business, that's worthwhile.

But getting Access through Microsoft 365 does not mean your database has to live in the cloud. That's a big misconception. You download and install Access on your computer, and it runs locally just like Access 2010 or 2012. You can keep your database files, back-end data, backups, reports, and everything else on your own local computers or network.

It's not the same as the browser-based Office versions - whatever Microsoft is calling those this week. Word, Excel, and Outlook have online versions, but Access isn't a browser application. Access runs on your PC.

I use Access through Microsoft 365 myself. You only need one paid copy of Access for the computer where you do the development. Other computers that only need to run your finished database can use the free Access Runtime edition. So, for example, you could have the full version on your office computer and Runtime installed on a counter computer or employee workstation. See Buy Access. I think I pay $9 a month for my complete Office 365 subscription, and that includes installing it on up to five machines.

And yes, LibreOffice Base exists, but it's nowhere near as powerful as Access. Plus, you won't be able to follow my Access lessons with it. If you're serious about building this, I'd stick with Access.

Richard Thank you for the clarification on Office 365. That helps a lot. I figured it was best to purchase the subscription. I hate that MS went subscription based. I knew LibreOffice wasn't as good as Access and I don't care for how Base works.

Jennifer as a developer who has built a complex ERP system in Access covering production, warehousing, dispatch, wholesale/retail sales, POS, employee tracking, overtime and timesheet calculations, alongside accounting integration, machine management from production to maintenance, I strongly agree with Richard, trying to roll out a system of this scale all at once creates unnecessary stress and guarantees high error rates.
My advice is to approach this modularly, treating every functional addition as a version upgrade. I'd also reccommend if you are planning such a complex architecture and intend to integrate systems like POS, you should seriously consider MS SQL for the backend. It offers a much more consistent and secure foundation. Down the road, this shift will allow you to scale seamlessly as new business requirements emerge, provide robust data security and encryption, and help you progress with minimal overall cost.
Expecting everything to run flawlessly on day one is a total pipe dream, don't put yourself under that kind of pressure and workload.
First, grab a pen and paper. Map out your requirements, run your analyses, and sketch your algorithms and workflows by hand. This paper first approach helps you catch overlooked edge cases and brings full clarity to the project structure in your mind. From there, focus on bringing the system up phase by phase. Every newly integrated module will boost your motivation and reinforce your confidence.
And never forget: There is no such thing as a perfect system. Even if you were working with the world's best software team, real world field testing will inevitably expose the application's strengths, weaknesses, and bottlenecks. There is simply no way to deliver a perfect system upfront. Phased deployment gives you the exact vantage point needed to identify those gaps and reinforce weak spots before rolling out the next module which is a massive advantage for building a truly stable infrastructure.
I wish you the best of luck. Feel free to share project updates here as you progress or drop any questions when you hit a wall, we’ll all be glad to help out.

Jennifer Based on my experience with LibreOffice Base and Google AppSheet, here is my take:

For small database architectures handling simple, routine tasks, where there is limited or no budget allocated for licensing, LibreOffice can be considered. However, given MS Access’s raw power, flexibility, abundance of resources, and the vast network of experts you can consult, I personally stay away from it.

AppSheet is another option for basic, cloud based services if you are comfortable using Google Sheets as a database with nested ID structures, and as long as you don't overlook a major catch! Despite being marketed as no-code/low-code, setting up automations, synchronization, complex calculations, and triggers actually requires writing substantial code. Again, when measured against the power, flexibility, and community support of Access, I would steer clear of it.

When managing tight budgets and navigating the challenging path of driving operations forward under heavy financial constraints, having near-developer-level skills in an application like Access gives you a massive advantage. In the short term—instead of locking yourself into off-the-shelf software packages before your custom system is ready—leveraging a mix of Excel alongside solid, structured documentation grants you both time and cost savings.

Once you are fully confident in your application, you can seamlessly transition to running your own custom-built platform without paying any ongoing software fees. At that stage, you can consolidate past records from commercial tools, Excel files, and notes into this single system, securing full operational control and establishing a unified corporate archive.

Navigating tight budgets and making strategic investments in the short term is undeniably tough. However, as long as you remain resolute, act rationally, and deploy the right instruments at the right time, the fruits of those early challenges will be far sweeter in the medium to long run. I wish you the best of success.

A Great suggestions. I never considered Google. I"d rather just stick with Access from the get go. I'm already working on a simple database for now with the bare minimum to start - phase 1 :). I will post updates or questions here if I need anything. It's the ongoing fee that I would rather avoid.

Yes, definitely post updates. I'd be very curious to see screenshots of your working progress.

It sounds like you've got exactly the right mindset now: start with the bare minimum that lets you take in a customer's laundry, track the order, print a receipt and bag tag, and keep a history. Get that working in the real world first. Then add features one at a time as you discover what you actually need.

And A's advice about planning things on paper first is solid. Think through the workflow from the moment a customer walks in with a bag until they pick it up again. That will help you identify the tables, forms, and statuses you need before you start building too much.

My progression for something like this usually is:

1. Paper, jot everything down, (or Notepad... who actually writes anymore, LOL?)
2. I usually move things to Excel and start tracking data there, with a separate sheet representing each table. You've seen me do it in my videos.
3. From there, start building the database once you're sure you've got enough data and you understand what tables and relationships you need.

That's one of the reasons I did all this in my Fitness database series too: to start from the beginning and show people how we're going to lay out the tables and the relationships, and then the forms came next.

IMHO-Buy Access/Office Pro standalone.  Why rent from Microsoft each year for Office 365?

Tom Oh I totally agree! I hate renting.

Tom   In a business environment that may involve multiple users, 365 subscription is a good deal as it allows multiple users.  When I was working, I got 365 for my company, and I even took one copy for home use (approved by my boss).  After I retired, I switched to single-license Office 2024.

I ran into a hiccup. I watched lesson 2 of Richard's SQL Server for Access Users and Richard said he only recommends SQL for in-house databases. We don't have any computers at either businesses because there is no need for them. So, this may not (or still may work depending on opinion here) work because I was planning on building the BE at home and use SQL for the front-end for our employees to utilize. After hearing Richard's story about the Dept. of Defense, I'm not sure about this now. I do have SSL domains for both laundromats that host our websites...could I host the FE on a subdomain? Thank you.

You can absolutely keep the SQL Server backend at home and have the Access frontend run on the employees computers, but I would separate that from the idea of hosting the Access frontend on a web subdomain.

Access itself is a desktop application, so putting the ACCDE/ACCDB file on an HTTPS subdomain would not make it a browser application. The frontend would still need to be installed locally on each employee's computer. Richard explained this distinction earlier as well. Access through Microsoft 365 still runs locally on the pc, it isn't a browser based version of Access.

Take a lok at these videos of Richard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cxdCcSZ4dY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq3kMz6ad_I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3i-ZvLGZ7A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynVDu6OF5kE

A Thank you!

Jennifer forgot to mention another major advantage of using MS Sql. You can use Access as the frontend on pcs, but in scenarios where a pc, Windows environment, or an installed Access setup is unavailable (bypassing the Runtime workaround) you can build web interfaces for required tasks like data entry or reporting using ASP.NET, node.js etc.

And a little trick, if you don't want to code a web app from scratch, you can plug the SQL database directly into lowcode platforms like Retool, Appsmith, or similar tools. You can literally drag & drop your way to functional web forms and dashboards.

This also eliminates the immediate need for a separate full-scale web app. You can consider this as a logical next step once your core application is done.

I think you might be a little confused about what I meant in the SQL Server for Microsoft Access Users course. That course is specifically designed around running an on-premises SQL Server. In other words, you set up and maintain your own SQL Server on a machine in your home, office, or local network.

I have a separate SQL Server Online Seminar series covering setting up SQL Server hosting with a web provider like WinHost. In that setup, the SQL Server database lives in the cloud on the hosting company's server. You can then connect Access front ends from your office PC, home PC, and both laundromats to that one central database over the Internet. That is probably much closer to what you would want if all locations need to use the same data.

I am not saying that I don't recommend putting SQL Server in the cloud. I do, when it makes sense. I am just saying that the particular course you are watching starts with a local, on-premises SQL Server because that is simpler to set up and teach at first. I will probably branch into more cloud and developer-level scenarios later in that series.

A is correct that the Access front end still needs to run locally on each computer. You would not put an ACCDB or ACCDE on a web subdomain and run it in a browser. Access is a Windows desktop application. Each laundromat would need at least one Windows PC to run the POS front end, whether it has full Access or the free Access Runtime installed.

For your situation, I would not recommend putting a SQL Server in your house and opening it directly to the Internet for both laundromats to use. It can be done, but then you are responsible for the Internet connection, router configuration, security, backups, remote access, and making sure your home PC or server stays online. A hosted SQL Server is usually the more practical solution for multiple physical locations. Many years ago, I used to run my own web server out of my home office until I got hacked. Read this story if you want to find out why you shouldn't do that.

For Phase 1, I would keep it simple. Get a basic PC at each location, put the Access front end on it, and have both connect to one shared back end. You could initially use an Access back end if you are only working at one location, but once both laundromats need simultaneous access to the same live orders and customer records, SQL Server hosting becomes much more attractive.

And remember, while you're getting started, you could just run each laundromat separately on their own database and then import the data to a central database once a week or so, as long as it's set up properly. That's a possibility too. It might make things easier to get started.

And remember, in your particular setup, you only need to pay for Microsoft Access once, only on the computer where you're actually developing the database. The laundromats, even if you have a thousand of them, can all run the free Runtime version, and you wouldn't have to pay for Office there. If you're the only person developing the database, you don't need to purchase a full copy of Microsoft Access for every computer in your laundromats.

You only need the full version of Access on the computer where you're actually developing and making changes to the database. The computers at the laundromats that are simply running your finished database can use the free Microsoft Access Runtime. There's no charge for the Runtime, and it's specifically designed for situations like this where users need to run an Access application but don't need the full development environment.

So your decision really comes down to what you want on your development computer. You can purchase Access 2024 by itself for about $180 as a one-time purchase. That gives you Access on one PC. If that's all you need, that's by far the less expensive option.

Alternatively, Microsoft 365 Apps for business is currently $10 per month per user when paid annually. That's $120 per year, or $600 over five years. In addition to Access, you get the desktop versions of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, and the other included Office apps, plus OneDrive storage. You can also install the Microsoft 365 applications on multiple computers that you personally use, subject to Microsoft's per-user licensing limits.

So if you only need Access on one development PC, I'd look seriously at the $180 standalone version. Your laundromat computers can run the free Access Runtime, so you don't need to buy Access for each location. If you also need Word, Excel, Outlook, etc., or you want the full version of Access available on several of your own computers, then the $10/month Microsoft 365 subscription may make more sense.

Either way, you don't need to pay for a full copy of Access on every laundromat computer just to run your Access application. That's exactly what the free Access Runtime is for.

See Also: Buy Access

Richard Thank you Richard (and everyone here) for your thorough inputs I REALLY appreciate it. I like the idea of using Runtime since it's free and our 6 employees will only need to enter data.

Jennifer and a side benefit is they can't modify the database even if they wanted to, lol.

Jennifer There is a middle ground, but I'm hesitant to mention it, as Richard will probably bill me 4 cents for doing so. Since you have some Access experience, and I presume know how to properly design a relational set of tables, you may want to consider a "starter pack" (what I call an Access Shell). For example, one such shell could show you how to properly design multiple addresses for a family (work vs home), along with how to tackle tons of other design issues. Possibly saving you years of work with analysis and future enhancements in your project that might have organizational scope.

https://599cd.com/blog/display-comment.asp?CommentID=82077

Evaluation Version 1_25 is ready for release, and in the next three weeks, a sample application for Royalty Management payments will be available for developers to evaluate.

Thomas Sending your invoice now... ka-ching!

Richard You're RICH! Three ways that could be interpreted.